"Does religion make the world a better place?"
This question will make many cringe, but believe me we do have some good points. We were watching Q & A the other day, and this was the topic they were debating. They had a scientist and a bishop, but niether side touched onto the points that I would have made.
Now, I know that many people will say 'what about the crusades?' Yes. Some TERRIBLE things have happened in the name of religion. But that is not my question. We are looking at today, right now. I would also just like to add that this debate is NOT about whether religion is or is not real. That is a big can of worms that I am at present leaving alone. My question is about the value of religion on society.
We all acknowledge that almost, if not all western countries are founded by religious cultures. Most of our laws and traditions come from our religious ancestors. Yet so many today mock and criticise anyone with beliefs, and it is almost frowned upon to believe in God. But, what would our world be like without these foundations?
Many people would find their lives lacking, without any real purpose or goals. It would also be quite a depressing reality, with nothing to look forward to as a reward for a good life.
More importantly, though, there would be no final punishment for bad deeds, and this would create anarchy. If the gorvernment revealed to everybody that tomorrow the world would explode, those without religion or faith would live for the day. They would do as they pleased, with no regard for the conseuquences, as lets face it, to them there would be no punishment for crimes. But for those who have religion or faith, they would continue to follow their moral compass as they believe that punishments exist beyond the realms and boundaries of the here and now.
I know that many people believe religion to be a waste of time, but for this one important reason, I think it is necessary for civil peace and well-being. The sad truth is, though, that todays society is all about immediate gratification, with no concern for long term consequences. People would rather throw God in the bin and enjoy themselves, than worry about their eternal souls.
I would love to hear some crazy arguments both for and against this topic, so unleash 'hell' (pardon the pun) and let us have it!
-T.J.
It's quite amusing that people always like to say that religion causes war and religious regimes have caused the deaths of millions of people. It is true of course, the crusades are one example, 60 million prostestants were killed during the dark ages and these there's islam. But what they conveniently ignore is that Godless regimes have killed more! Do the French revolution, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Edi Amin, Mao Tsi Tung ring any bells? Of course, when you think about it is is logical as you say. When there is no ultimate consequence for your actions here and now you are free to do what you like. The atheist has no consistant, logical basis for morals at all. How can an atheist judge another for murder when murder and struggle for survival apparently brought humans into existence through millions of years of evolution. How can an atheist think slavery abhorent when we are all just modified pond scum. I think when it comes down to it, most atheists reject God not out of any intellectual reason for his non existence but for the fact that they do not want to be tied down by his morals. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most prosperous nations have been founded on Christian principles. However, I'm not here saying that we should all be Christians because it is better for society even though we know its not true. The positive benefits can only come out of Christianity when its proponents actually believe it. It is always better to believe in the truth rather than a lie. Jesus came to bring us the light so that we can come out of the darkness.
ReplyDeleteT.J: Does religion make the world a better place? Yes, but not directly. I believe it's the actions you choose that help make the world a better or worse place to live in. The mere concept of a religion cannot make everything in the world perfect, an invisible idea cannot interact with the world, it's up to the people who inhabit the world. And if the actions of those people are inspired by a religion, then that religion has indirectly made the world a better place.
ReplyDeleteAnd I personally do wish that people these days cared more about their eternal soul as well.
Luke: Some interesting historical factoids...
French Revolution: Christian rulers were a root cause of the revolution. They treated people so horrendously, consequently the people rebelled.
Hitler: Hitler was a Christian and spoke about "the Lord" in many of his speeches.
Stalin: had a religiously abusive upbringing, consequently he became an atheist and was anti many religions (except the Orthodox Christian Church of Russia). He died a Christian.
Pol Pot: Was raised a Buddhist / Catholic. Later renouncing it, he believed that heaven and destiny would guide him to re-shape the Cambodia.
Idi Amin: Was a Muslim
Mao Tse Tung (Mao Zedong): raised Buddhist, renounced it and became Marxist-Leninist and later established Maoism. His beliefs however were partly based in Confucianism and Taoism.
Everyone has different reasons for doing what they do. I can't imagine that "atheists have no consistent logical basis for morals" can be true. Rather than doing good deeds because it will get them into heaven, an atheist who does something good does it for no reward. A good deed is done because it is the right thing to do. People can figure out what is good and bad with or without religious instruction.
For example there is social and cultural conditioning; childhood upbringing; personal conscience; logical rationalization; feelings and intuition; understanding outcomes and repercussions; a personal moral compass and code of conduct; ethics; desire for harmony and peaceful co-existence; laws; a good heart etc.
Many religious people have done bad things as well and that's sad because they are aware of the ultimate consequence of their actions, but do it anyway.
There has been blood shed on both sides, but also many kindnesses performed. I love all God's children regardless of their beliefs, and I only feel it's fair to give credit where credit is due to our atheist brothers and sisters.
Your refutation of my examples of Godless regimes is based on very loose links with religion indeed. The fact that some of these people were Christian by name only demonstrates that not all people who take the name of Christ actually live by his standards. The French revolutionaries rebelled against their mistreatment by Christians. This apparently justifies their killing of millions of innocent lives including children. They were materialists (ie. they believe matter is all their is, there is no super-natural rhelm) who were openly anti Christian. The view that Hitler and the Nazis were Christian is a common myth that has no basis in fact. Hitler's references to God were clearly not the Christian God. Hitler was a clever politician who used whatever to gain control of his populace. The book 'the swastika against the cross' clearly demonstrates through much historical evidence that the Nazis were not Christian at all but tried to stamp it out. Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung were all Marxists so I will answer them together. It was obvious through their actions that Marxism was their motivating philosophy not any of their supposed religious connections. A Marxist by definition is not a Christian since Marx philosophy was openly anti-theistic. Anyone who asserts the opposite is not well read on the topic of Marxism. I may have to concede on Adi Amin as the information on his philosophy is not plentiful. I have read that he too was influenced by Marxism but the links are not stong enough to debate over. In any case, I'm not in the business of defending Islam.
ReplyDeleteMy argument is not that religion as a whole is good for society but that Chritianity is. However, I agree that the mere concept of religion is not necessarily good. But Christianity is not merely conceptual but is based on the historical fact that Jesus did live, did die and was raised from the dead.
You say an atheist does good deeds because 'it is the right thing to do' but that statemement is not logically consistent with their philosophy so your statement is self refuting. How can we determine what's right and wrong if we came about through a process of blind pitiless indifference (ie. evolution). How can murder be wrong when we've been killing each other for millions of years in the struggle for survival. You can't just know what is right and what is wrong since different people have different opinions on the subject. So then how do you know your opinion of right and wrong is right and theirs is wrong. I didn't say atheists have no basis for morals, it's just that their basis is not logically consistent. Morals become akin to mere preferences so that the statement 'I don't like chocolate' is morally equal to 'I don't particurlarly like killing babies'.
Obviously, many religious people have done bad things but that is because they are not acting in accord with their philosophy. However, it is completely logical for an atheist to do bad things as there is no higher power to be accountable to.
I too love all of God's people and believe we are all aqual but this certainly does not mean that all philosophy is equal.
You raise some interesting points there Luke, I am not going to comment on the historical facts as I did not live them and have not studied them in sufficient detail to give factually relevant details.
ReplyDeleteThere are 2 points that i have a problem with however, the first is your point regarding Christianity, now i know this may open a can of worms better left unopened but i feel it needs to be addressed.
Christianity as a religion has given us the crusades (yes i know that was mentioned and i know you may like to ignore the past but when assessing somethings impact on society you must look at it as a whole not just the part you like), the Spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, people being burned at the stake for being gay, countless wars, sexual molestation of altar boys and countless other acts that directly go against the commandments under which it was founded.
Now I agree that belief in a higher power and fear for your mortal soul CAN lead to not doing "wrong" or "immoral" acts, but the problem is it does not MAKE people behave.
It's a tricky thing to argue the logical consistency of an atheists beliefs when you are not an atheist. I for one am not and so am not going to try to state unequivocally what they believe, all I can do is make observations based on my understanding of human nature and society.
This brings me to my second issue, to claim that atheists have no qualms about raping, killing or doing anything else that comes to mind is sad because with or without religion we are all taught a set of morals and we all have a moral compass, a man who believes in god may follow his moral compass to do good to preserve his soul, but he still needs a sense of right and wrong. We don't need a higher power to be accountable to, we need to be accountable to OUR-SELF.
Our evolution (if that is what happened) was not pitiless, if it was society would never have formed, in order for a society people need to come together to work towards a common goal, this created common interests and a sense of responsibility to each other, you would not kill your neighbor as that would weaken the community and might result in you getting eaten tomorrow. This resulted in the formulation of morals and ethics something that is not reliant on religion, after all, some religions are ok if you kill people or stone them to death and yet i consider that to be unethical.
If you are arguing that the only thing that keeps people from killing each other is religion then i would ask 2 things:
1: what happened before the development of religion and how did we develop to the point of needing religion?
and 2: does that mean the only thing stopping you from killing is fear of going to hell?
Personally I am not religious, but I am not an atheist either, i am spiritual in my own way and love and respect life, I have seen both in my lifetime and in historical records far more hate and violence perpetrated by people in the name of religion than not.
Reading through T.J.'s blogg once again I feel that some of the replies seem to be missing the point of the topic.
ReplyDeleteI agree with them that myriads of horrendous things have been done in the past in the name of Religion of all names !!
Today we find ourselves watching yet more terrible crimes committed by ALL of the main Religious groups around the world. Each believes that they are right and that their cause is not only just but also pre-ordained from a Higher being. Naturally they cannot all be correct & I honestly believe that NONE of them are correct !
Religion is used as an excuse for people to do awful things to each other. What is needed in this day & age is for people of ALL faiths & beliefs to start to love each other unconditionally. FAITH & not RELIGION is what will make this wondrous earth a better place & will give everybody stability in their lives.
The core value of almost all Religions is to love one another.
So, to answer your question T.J., I don't think that Religion makes the world a better place. I believe that love for our fellow man & respect for all makes the world a better place.
I am sensing a lot of hate toward the Catholics in particular. We all know that the Catholic church has committed some of the worst acts in history, but perhaps they could see that we were looking at a Godless future where we had rejected God (as it seems we are headed), and they were just desperately trying to preserve the truth. Pretty much every decent religion promotes forgiveness, and I think it is about time we all took a deep breath and forgave the catholic church.
ReplyDeleteI would just like to answer your first question, Matt. As a christian, I do not believe in the 'development' of religion. I believe that God was here before us, and the first people KNEW God, and it has only been as we have become further and further removed from our God that this knowledge has morphed into faith, religion and fable, with many people, aethiests, forgetting completely. Religion has not committed ANY crimes, but infact every crime on the planet is done by PEOPLE. I wish people would stop blaming religions for their own problems, mistakes and flaws. Has anyone else noticed the correlation between the rise in crime in general and the decline in faith?
ReplyDeleteFrom my interpretation of the original question 'does religion make the world a better place?' it was not based on any one religion, but on them as a whole. My answer to that is simple. If you were to ask a religious person (denomination irrelavant) "Is your life enriched by your faith?" I know that they will answer "Yes!" Now ask an aethiest "Is your life enriched by believing in nothing?"
Faith gives people hope and courage! What benefit is there to believe in nothing?
Luke:
ReplyDeleteI’m extremely surprised you took the facts I posted personally, they weren’t posted to upset you. Although you accused me of refuting your examples, three of the five people you brought up were proven to be atheist at the time the atrocities happened which actually **AGREES** and **SUPPORTS** your statement. I wasn’t personally disagreeing or agreeing with you, just providing facts. However naming three confirmed atheist tyrants makes your argument underwhelming, and honestly the French Revolution was not a regime, it was a socio-political movement.
I was not saying that all philosophy is equal, that would be a ridiculous statement for a reasonably intelligent person to make. My point was…
Firstly, some Christians have done some bad things, and some non-Christians have done some bad things too. I was under the impression this is irrefutable common knowledge.
Secondly, I believe that just because an atheist doesn't believe in God does not make them a mindless immoral monster. People can have different beliefs to you and still be just as moral, good, kind and special as you are. This seems reasonably logical too.
Personally, if I didn't believe in God I would still help old ladies cross the road, because it's the right thing to do. I would not murder, because that is the wrong thing to do. Why? Among other reasons, because it's not in my nature to hurt others; I was raised to understand that murder is bad; I couldn’t live with myself if I committed a crime like that; and I believe it’s so selfish to just snuff out another life regardless of any excuse you can think up etc. I like to believe that people are naturally good and I believe that love is at the heart of all people. I do good deeds with no desire for reward. Perhaps you believe that people are naturally bad and you only do good things because it might secure a spot in Heaven for you. I’m not saying either is right or wrong, the important thing is what people are doing -- and whether everyone is doing the right thing for the fundamental betterment of all humankind on earth.
Are you aware that without religion, people can still differentiate between good and bad? Otherwise every atheist would be a serial killer.
AS AN INDIVIDUAL we can think for ourselves. We can rationalize; decide; act; feel; change; grow; develop; evolve; analyse; evaluate; experience; learn; love; regret; I'll leave it there because I have no intention of indulging the entire spectrum of the human experience here. But basically, we’re not static.
AS A COMMUNITY, SOCIETY OR FAMILY GROUP we can develop a consensus on a subject from our relationships and experiences with other human beings (eg murder is wrong) because we don't live alone in a void. We learn from others. There are also laws, rules, regulations, social etiquette, common courtesy, human decency and societal norms (etc) that either enforce or suggest a code of conduct and a way to behave in the world. People then have free will to act as they see fit. It's not your beliefs that make you a better person, it's your actions, and acting in a way that is universally responsible is the best road to take, atheist or otherwise.
You speak as if opinions on subjects can't change and that atheists are too morally ambiguous and instinctively corrupt to “do the right thing”. You seem to fear them making their own decisions and judgments. I'm sure the lack of religious control and the suggestion of their collective unpredictability un-nerves you. But it’s honestly not right to control everybody in the world with religion, nor have everyone take upon a cookie cutter role, disregarding everyone’s own unique beauty and individuality. There is a spark and unpredictability to life, sometimes life doesn’t always go the way we planned, but that is life.
Ideas we have can change, grow, evolve, be exchanged, analysed, developed, intuited and evaluated when combined with thinking; feelings; first-hand and related experiences; passed on knowledge; personal codes of conduct; morals and ethics; instructional learning; fables and storytelling; the law of cause and effect; trial and error; having a conscience; experiments; superstitions; an instinctual moral compass; social and cultural conditioning; where on Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs you presently are; psychological analysis and therapy; theory; passions, dreams and inspirations; cold hard facts; scientific discoveries; political movements; social opinion; etc. No one is trapped within the same opinion forever. Something once thought fine to do (eg Chinese drinking mercury to maintain good health in 259BC) can be seen as actually bad, and visa versa. This is the rational decision making process established in infancy, we learn that the stove is hot and not to touch it, otherwise we get burned. Atheists can figure that stuff out too.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree. It's logically conceivable for a Christian to choose to do bad things, knowing full well the consequences of their actions, it’s called ‘not caring’ or ‘thinking that you’re an exception to the rule’. Being a Christian is not an instant “get out of jail free” card regardless of how you conduct yourself. Priests who molest and rape children are fine with their actions otherwise they wouldn't do it in the first place, or commit the offence repeatedly over decades with multiple victims.
I feel your response was unnecessary and I can't see any point in it other than derailing TJ's topic, deliberately trolling me and spotlighting your soapbox to get a second round of attention on intolerance. At the end of the day, this is all about a theory which we can’t prove because we’re both not atheists and can’t realistically speak for millions of people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you have yours, I have mine, they're different, that's what happens in real life.
In the spirit of Jesus I love all people equally, I do not discriminate with my love, love less or have any less respect if a person is an atheist. We have free will and atheists are exercising their free will. This has been a supreme waste of my time and I’ll pray for you to have more love, light, compassion and kindness in your heart for people who are different than you.
It seems i need to clarify my position somewhat, I was not attacking the Christians of today but merely pointing out that some of the terrible things that have been done in it's name.
ReplyDeleteIt is my humble opinion that all religions are responsible for both great good and terrible evil and all you have to do is look in a history book to see that.
At the end of the day I feel that it is not religion that makes the world a better place but "spirituality" and by this I mean a belief in something greater than yourself. You don't have to go to church and follow strict rules about what you eat or wear or do in order to be spiritual. God is everywhere and in everything and to live a life of love and light is all you need, not an institution that is full of it's own corrupt self interest.
With regards to the comments by Mr or Mrs anonymous, I would be happy to debate with you regarding the disagreements you have with my viewpoints but not when you speak from the shadows. Step forward and stand behind your words so we can see who you are and I will happily debate the issues.
Either way I wish you well as I wish everyone well.
"Now, I know that many people will say 'what about the crusades?' Yes. Some TERRIBLE things have happened in the name of religion. But that is not my question. We are looking at today, right now. I would also just like to add that this debate is NOT about whether religion is or is not real. That is a big can of worms that I am at present leaving alone. My question is about the value of religion on society."
ReplyDeleteThis is what T.J. posted on this weeks blog & I believe that most of the replies have moved very far away from this original statement.
To try to get back to the basics of this debate I would prefer to replace the word "religion" with "faith". There are many religions on this earth & many people who have a strong "faith" in the God of their choice. On the other hand there are many people who hide their action behind the name of their "religion" & say that their cause is the only just one.
As I said earlier, LOVE & respect for ALL mankind is what we need to create a positive change in this world. We need to look beyond religions & instead look at the person or peoples actions. If they act out of a basis of love & respect then their actions are a valuable asset towards the well being of this earth. If they act out of hate, envy malice, prejudice or a misconceived belief in the superiority of their "religion", then they are WRONG no matter what they say they believe. If a person is an "atheist" they are no better or worse than someone who states that they believe in a Deity.
People have a conscience & inherently know right from wrong not matter whether they are atheist or religious.
Again I say that LOVE & RESPECT is what will make this world a better place & will strengthen society. There would be less war, theft, bashings & other crimes if everyone loved each other & had respect for who they are not for the "religion" that they follow.
Does religion make the world a better place ?
ReplyDeleteI say no !
I have very little knowledge of religions other than Christianity so my references are confined to that.
I am a practicing & believing Christian but I am anti religion. If we are true Christians why do we need dozens of varieties of it. I do believe that Christians have greatly affected western civilizations for the better. I also believe that religions have caused more harm than good !
I have known many religious people who were NOT Christians & who have been responsible for a disproportionate amount of grief & suffering even though they are regular attendees at church.
I will state it again, a true Christian will positively affect this world & all those who live on it.
Wow! Too many posts, too little time to answer. I'll try my best but will not be able to attend to all objections. Firstly, just a quick note about the actual q & a episode that sparked this blog. My wife and I watched this over the weekend to see what it was about. I'm suprised you didn't or don't know who Richard Dawkins is TJ. Maybe it's just because I'm interested in defending the Christian faith and read alot about the topic that I know who he is. This is no mere scientist. If there was a high priest of the atheist religion this would be the man. I think too many people make the mistake of thinking there is science and then there is religion. In reality they overlap alot. People also make the mistake that these scientists are objective and are just speaking about facts. This is certainly not true. There is no such thing as neutrality, all people have certain foundations that they believe to be true without proof. This man believes, there is no God, no supernatural rhelm of any kind and interprets the facts based on this. His bias is clearly indentified when he basically admitted that nothing would convince him of the existence of God, not even a 40 foot giant Jesus walking in and declaring that he exists.
ReplyDeleteMatt:
ReplyDeleteYes, we all no about the horrible things religion has done although I would be willing to say that the things you mentioned are extremely by the anti-christian media we have here in Australia. I'm not going to go into the history due to time constraints. I was merely saying, that even more horrible things have been committed in the name of nothing. Strange that you would say that I like to ignore the past when I spent half my post talking about history? Lets get some things straight. I did not say that atheists have no qualms about killing, rape etc. and I don't think that all atheist or evil sadistic monsters and Christians are all moral and holy. I'm saying that atheists do not have a logically consistent basis for morals. Therefore, the basis for their morals have been borrowed from the Chritian world view. They certainly couldn't come through the pitiless process of evolution. And yes, evolution is pitiless, blind and indifferent. This is simply a reference to the great high priest of atheism himself Mr Richard Dawkins who said we live in a universe which has 'no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference'. The idea that evolution could produce morals as you suggest I find very disingenious. You said that people wouldn't kill each other as that would weaken the community. I would say exactly the opposite. If I was just an animal and acting on animal intincts I would kill a member of my community if they had a better looking wife, a bigger steak, more cattle etc. etc. I miriade of reasons. I would also have no qualms about having sex with whoever or whatever I wanted because life would be about pleasing myself. I'd be happy to steal, lie, or whatever as long as it benefited myself. This is what is happening to the world now all because we've thrown out God. In answer to your questions. 1. This questions assumes that evolution is true and is therefore circular in its reasoning. I don't believe there was a development of religion. God revealed himself to humanity in the beginning. 2. Not exactly, I do believe some level of morality is inate and put there by God but we can't rely on our own conscience alone. Our concience is often wrong. Plenty of mass murderers claim there conscience has no problem with murder, plenty of pedophiles claim they have been intrested in children for as long as they can remember and don't see anything wrong with it. I'll hopefully be back later to answer some more of these posts.
WOW, well I don't know what to say except that if you truly feel that way Luke then I have to feel sorry for you. I don't want to make this personal but you have just said that you personally would be happy to kill, rape and steal if it wasn't for god. Forgive me if I misunderstood your statement but that is how it comes across. Personally regardless of the existence of God or the church, if tomorrow it was proven concluively that there was no God and when we die there is nothing I would still not kill, rape, steal or do any of those sorts of things. It is not fear for my soul that drives me but an understanding that for me that is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what one man has said about the pitiless indifference of evolution, that is one man's opinion, he is entitled to his views as we all are.
The simple fact of the matter is, even if we take the bible as truth and god created man, he did not create the church, that was our doing. In the beginning in this scenario we did not need the church as we all would know of God's existence and commune with him directly.
As i said in my last post, all religions have done both good and bad, and I would add to that so have non-religious people. Though I find it a great deal harder to find examples of that as I can the other.
In the end I believe we are all Gods children and if we stop fighting over who idiotic things and simply embrace Gods love for EVERYONE regardless of color, creed, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever other stupid difference people have been killing each other over for millenia we wouldn't need churches. We would already be living a life of grace.
I will not be responding to anymore posts as this whole discussion has gotten so off topic and is getting far too absurd to waste any more time over. Feel free to respond everyone, but I am done with it.
p.s. regarding your comment:
ReplyDelete"2. Not exactly, I do believe some level of morality is inate and put there by God but we can't rely on our own conscience alone. Our concience is often wrong. Plenty of mass murderers claim there conscience has no problem with murder, plenty of pedophiles claim they have been intrested in children for as long as they can remember and don't see anything wrong with it."
I have 2 things to say,
Firstly this one point negates all your arguments regarding atheists as even if they don't believe in God they would still have those innate morals.
Secondly I would argue that it is not the flaw in conscience as it is when people get so messed up in their heads that they cannot stay in tune with those innate morals.
Now I am done, this is not a hit and run, feel free to respond in whatever way you need to (this is addressed to everyone) but I will no longer be participating in this topic.
This post has demonstrated that it's the anti-christians of the world that are the biggoted, intolerant and hateful people. I have remained calm and have not taken anything personally (despite Mark's insistence that I have) and have not meant to be personal and apologise if I inadvertently have. Yet I'm the one who receives a barrage of claims of intolerance and hate. I'd like to know where I've displayed either of those character flaws. It seems to me that you believe that anyone that disagrees with you must hate you. I love all people, no matter what colour, creed, ethnicity, sexuality etc. etc. I can't answer all the objections above as I don't have the time. But firstly, no I'm not saying that if there wasn't a God a would be happy to steal, kill etc. I'm saying that morals could never evolve and so the fact that I have morals is evidence for God. So I'm not saying that atheists can't have morals. I'm saying that if their position is true, then morality is an illusion and morals are whatever we want them to be. Maybe I should re-assert my posisition in the light of what Joanne and Dennis have said. It seems the definition of religion is a bit slippery. I'm defining religion here as organised faith. So my position is that perhaps religion isn't good for society but God is. I would rather base my morals on the unchanging bible than on man's changing morality. Human's are not inately good as you say. Humans are inately evil, we wan't to do the wrong thing. It's only God's grace and strength that prevents us from slipping into sin. Anyone who has kids knows that the myth that people are inately good is wrong. Kids must be trained to know what is right and what is wrong. A little experiment could test this, though the experiment itself would be absolutely immoral. Get a bunch of babies, feed them but never give them any attention, never speak to them, lock them in a room in solitude. When they are five release them into the wilderness with each other and observe. Would they form a civilised society or would we have a lord of the flies scenario. In fact we don't need to test this at all. Before Christianity the pagans, sacrificed babies, had numerous slaves that they mistreated severely, practiced infanticide, had sex with whoever and whatever they wanted, murdered etc. etc. It was the civilised influence of Christianity and the bible that brought us into the civilised world we have today. However, we are fast slipping back into pre Christian times all because we've forgotten God.
ReplyDeleteHOUSEKEEPING EDIT:
ReplyDeleteI've just noticed that the last line in paragraph six shouldn't be there. I had deleted words from a paragraph because I felt it basically repeated what was said further down. I just didn't realize that I accidentally left the last sentence there. The sentence is "Otherwise every atheist would be a serial killer", my editing boo boo.
I just wanted to record this before my sloppy editing and leftover words get taken out of context and become the primal focus of an attack on me :(
First of all I agree with the opening statement, but as you all have differing definitions on the word religion (the most bazar being religion = catholic)here is the definition I am using.
ReplyDeleteReligion- the formation of a group of people believing in the same belief. Religion as a whole (christianity, buddist, zoist, muslim, jewish, Hindu) was the head of our society many a year ago. ALL societys!! So society has the moral compass of religion deeply ingrained in it. The question is whether or not if these morals weren't there would society have a moral compass that pointed in the right direction? I say no, because if I didnt have faith nothing would stop me doing what I wanted for what I cared about. eg killing the object of my affection's lover, if they weren't mine! The only thing that could stop me would be someone or something of equal or greater power as my self!!
Rape as a term wouldn't exist, as consent wouldn't matter!! Animals don't ask permission.
The church as you all seem to refer to as religion, is just there for those who need help, cause let's face it, the population as a whole is stupid and needs a shepard!!!!!!!
And to be honest, I am a selfish being, who believes there are no selfless acts. But it is my morals founded in faith that restrains me. I am what I am, and I am not dilusional about my darker side, unlike most other people.
P.S. God help you all if God is proven to not exist
Farsha, your wording, phrasing style and choice of vocabulary sound strangely familiar ;) You've hit the nail on the head with your comment about you not being dilusional about your darker side. I would probably use more theological terms like our inherent sinful nature but the point is the same. It comes down to worldview, the Christian believes man is inherently sinful due to his separation from God, pretty much everyone else believes man is inherently good. However, the question of which one is right on this issue, I believe is a question of fact. Anyone who denies that they battle with selfishness every day needs to get off their high horse and stop diluding themselves. But society says that selfishness is good and I think alot of people dilude themselves into thinking they are not selfish.
ReplyDeleteI would take issue with your comment about church however. The truth is, we are sheep and need a sheppard. Jesus Christ is our sheppard. Fellowship with likeminded people is important to our spiritual growth. But it's always important to not be lead by men. The bible says that the Bereans were more noble than their brothers because they tested what their preachers taught them to make sure it was so. So no the church (which I would define as simply a fellowship of believers) isn't just for those who want to blindly follow some leader.
Luke I would suggest to you that if you wish to do what is right, (for me that is not to upset others as I do not like to be upset eg treat others as I would like to be treated) perhaps you should keep your personal religious beliefs to yourself, think about the fact that to each and every action there is an equil and opposite reaction. I have witnessed your actions/ words upset many as you have not thought things through and I assure you that things will bite you in the bum one day even create a "war" and have others pulled into your "war" due to your insensitive nature. It is not my intention to attack you but to show as a non believer that I understand right and wrong and that not all believers know the difference between right and wrong no matter how minor the wrong is. I post as anon due to the fact that I can not work technology well and can not work out any other way to comment. Also this is my first post.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I certainly do not go out with the intent to upset anyone. You speak is if not upsetting people is some supreme moral. However, as you are an unbeliever, what is your basis for thinking that upsetting someone is wrong? What moral absolute do you invoke to define upsetting someone as wrong. After all, if morals are not absolute but are man made, then upsetting someone may be wrong for you but I may decide that it is right.
ReplyDeleteSince this a religious debate, I think I'm entitled to voice my religious views. I don't believe not upsetting people is some supreme moral. My responsibilities first and foremost is to God and his truth, and if telling the truth means it upsets a few people then so be it. People are free to refrain from debating with me if what I say cuts to the heart. If everyone went around holding their tongue through fear of hurting someone this world would be a pretty boring place. We would be robots with no freedom to exprese our opinions. Why should a difference of opinion hurt anyone anyway. I've always stuck to the facts and what can be logically determined by the facts and have not attacked anyone personally. Perhaps, it's not me upsetting people but the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin.
You say that you have witnessed my actions upset people. Can I take this to mean that you are someone that I know? If so then it is quite cowardly to remain anonymous. The technology excuse doesn't cut it for me, it's quite easy to name yourself in the body of the post. But perhaps I misread your words.
First post.
ReplyDeleteI remain anonymous because it is available to me, and I don't wish to be attacked personally. I don't feel any pressing need to justify this, as if it was from a cowardly perspective, I would just make up a random name.
So, that's out of the way -
No I don't believe that religion makes the world a better place in general.
I believe empathy for fellow humans, and animals, makes the world a better place. I am not religious, nor am I an atheist. I class myself as a spiritual agnostic.. I think there's more than this life, but I don't believe any of us really know what's out there.
The religious can have empathy, atheists can show empathy, and agnostics can show empathy. It's not exclusive to religion, and I don't believe that it originates from religion.
I believe that people are inherently good, and that rather than being feared into compliance, rather than choosing to do right to avoid punishment, that non-religious people make good choices because of the way that they have seen others treated by their role models, because they have learnt empathy. It's also the reason that people treat others badly, it's what they have lived.
Also, to touch on another religion, there is buddhism (and possibly other similar religions0 who don't use punishment as a way to keep people in check. they make choices based on what will help them achieve enlightenment, and as far as I'm aware, if they haven't achieved enlightment, there is no fear of death, they merely have to deal with the natural consequences of not achieving enlightenment.
Now by saying that we couldn't have possibly evolved to this, Luke is implying that humans are also inherently stupid? that we couldn't have figured out that bashing and killing weren't bad? So we would kill someone who is a threat, because they have the affections of the one we love, that in our inane stupidity we would not then see the heartbreak we caused that very person that we love? we would not see the natural consequences of our actions?
Oh ye of little faith ;) We can learn to put man on the moon, and we can learn to hook up an entire planet to communicate with one another,but learning that killing means dead, never coming back, or that killing causes emotional pain to those left behind is beyond us?
Also, Luke - I believe that it is your lack of empathy towards others that gets people upset. You may not be overtly attacking people, but your comments are quite passively aggressively cutting, and there are a lot of backhanded insults in the things you say.
eg: "I've always stuck to the facts and what can be logically determined by the facts and have not attacked anyone personally. Perhaps, it's not me upsetting people but the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin." - A totally backhanded swipe at anyone who's opinion differs from your own as only getting upset because they are sinful? And then when they do get upset, you cry 'woe is me, I'm being attacked'.
I would also like to cyber-shake Marks hand. Thankyou for reminding me that not all religious people suffer from lack of empathy. you have my full respect.